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4k tv upgrade

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Teddyboy
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4k tv upgrade

Post by Teddyboy » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:17 pm

What would be a good 4k tv to buy. I can get it from anywhere. Amazon, Costco, Best Buy. I just don’t know what I should get. I owes y mind. Keeping in mind that I use cmc and I am starting to buy 4k discs now. I don’t want to spend more then $1800. I think I can easily get a decent tv for below that cost. I just don’t know where to start.
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Pauven
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Pauven » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:23 pm

That's a nice budget, I'm sure you can get a pretty awesome TV for that. But since you didn't mention size, it's hard to give you much guidance. For example, you might be able to find an "entry-level" 82" for $1800, or a mid-range 65", or a higher-end 55". So size is probably the first hurdle.

You don't mention gaming, so that probably makes things easier. For gaming you need specialized TV's with low-latency modes, variable refresh rates, and higher refresh rates. They like to charge a lot more for those features, so hopefully you don't care about that.

For 4K UHD Blu-ray, your primary concerns are: 4K, HDR, Contrast, and Color Gamut/bit-depth.

4K is pretty self explanatory. No reason to buy a non-4K TV these days, and you won't get HDR without 4K anyway.

HDR is a big ol' mess. You'll find that there are actually multiple HDR standards: HDR10, HDR10+ (which expands upon HDR10), and Dolby Vision (arguably the best, but basically equivalent to HDR10+). Not every TV supports every standard. Ditto with your A/V receiver, and your Blu-ray player, and even your UHD Blu-ray discs!!! You might have a disc with only Dolby Vision, but a TV that only supports HDR+. The answer would be to get a TV that supports every format, but good luck with that... You'll probably have to make a choice, especially at that price point. From monitoring the disc market, it seems like there might be more HDR10 and HDR10+ discs than Dolby Vision (but I could be wrong about that that), and that might be your biggest consideration. Also, there's one more type of HDR, that's HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) used in broadcast/cable/satellite feeds. But typically most TV's that support HDR10, HDR10+, or Dolby Vision also support HLG.

I just a quick search, and it looks like you can only get TV's that either have HDR10+ or Dolby Vision, but not both... :cry:

Another consideration with HDR is that cheaper TV's might support it, but can't actually display it. To properly display HDR, you need a TV that can get really bright (nits), while still being able to reach very dark blacks (Contrast). So really Contrast goes hand-in-hand with HDR, but perhaps is even more important as good Contrast can improve all images, even non-HDR. Contrast is greatly affected by the backlight type. Edge-lit is the worst, where full-array with local-dimming is around the best (self-illuminating no-backlight is technically better, but these are OLED's that don't have good HDR brightness). With all local dimming, the more zones the better, as each zone get's smaller and is less likely to be noticed as big blocks of varying brightness (most obvious on the end-credits with white text scrolling on a black background). For the brightness, sometimes you'll see this advertised at HDR600 or HDR1000, for 600 or 1000 nits. If you can, I'd say aim for close to 1000 nits to really make HDR pop.

OLEDs have the best black levels and gorgeous colors, but can't actually get very bright, plus they are susceptible to burn-in. And since OLEDs are really expensive, any that you find at the $1800 price point are going to be entry-level and are probably not worth considering. So that means you're probably looking for a good LED-LCD type TV.

Color Gamut is how much of the possible colors a TV can actually display. This is affected by two things: the quality of the panel itself, and the bit-depth of the image processor. The Color Gamut you care about for UHD Blu-ray is DCI-P3 for HDR10/HDR10+, and Rec.2020 for Dolby Vision. A TV that can output 97% of DCI-P3 is better than a TV than can only output 89% of DCI-P3 - ditto for Rec.2020. Similarly, a 12-bit TV (68.7 billion colors) is better than 10-bit (1.07 billion colors) is better than 8-bit (16.7 million colors). If you're watching a HDR10+ UHD disc on an 8-bit TV, those billion colors are mapped down to 16.7 million colors, so you lose a lot of that original color detail, and even more so for 12-bit.

But 12-bit is still pretty expensive and I doubt you'll find one for $1800, which means you probably won't be able to get proper Rec.2020/Dolby Vision/12-bit for your budget, so you might be better off looking for a strong DCI-P3/HDR10+/10-bit TV.

Here's more on that topic, with some pictures to help illustrate some of the concepts:
https://theappliancesreviews.com/what-i ... th-in-tvs/

Other considerations: It's probably wise to get a TV that has at least 1 HDMI 2.1 port.

Teddyboy wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:17 pm
What would be a good 4k tv to buy.
Obviously I avoided answering that one particular question. I really don't know, as my main TV is over 6 years old, non-4K, non-HDR, and 8-bit. Maybe other users have some first hand experience they can share.

My primary contribution was to just give some tips on what to look for. I think you can plug some of these into a good TV search engine (Crutchfield's is pretty nice) and find some good options.

Hopefully you remember to come back here and post about whatever you end up getting!!!
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Teddyboy
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Teddyboy » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:43 pm

Thanks Paul. This helps a lot. Maybe console gaming. Ps5, Xbox, Nintendo, but I really don’t care how they look. It’s more Important that my ripped media looks as good as it possibly can on a 4k display. Size wise probably a 55” or 65”. I don’t want to go any larger then that. I have a 47” 1080p Samsung that’s about 11-12 years old. I bought it for $1500 from the local frys. I’m going to have upscale my DVDs so they look good on 4k but that subject is for another thread.
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Pauven
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Pauven » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:40 pm

I'd go for the 65" range for 4K. A 55" might be too small to enjoy the extra pixels, unless you were sitting super close.

And since you're interested in a PS5 and console gaming, you definitely want a TV with HDMI 2.1. And VRR might be a nice bonus, works great with new consoles.

I think a good 65" should be in the range of $1200-1400, and if you stretch towards your $1800 limit you can get a realllly nice 65". Just be careful, a lot of 65" $1200 range TV's are 8-bit (normally listed as 8-bit with 10-bit dithering). I think it's worth it to seek out a true 10-bit panel.

Since you're gonna use this with a HTPC, the HTPC can do all the heavy lifting to upscale DVD to 4K. madVR to the rescue there. But this could require a higher end video card, since you're creating 26 or 53 fake pixels for every real one. That's one of the problems of modern video equipment - watching 4K UHD HDR Blu-rays will make you realize how bad DVD's can look...
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Teddyboy
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Teddyboy » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:15 pm

Well I found a couple of tv in my price range.
First one is a Vizio P65QX-H1 $1500 from B&H and Best Buy
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/best/by-size/65-inch
Hdr10+ and Dolby Vision, hdmi 2.1 it has a narrow viewing range but is looks no different then what I have now. Overall reviews are favorable. Looks like it’s a good tv that would last me for years to come. The review unit had a red tint to it, but that may be from just that individual unit. No one else has complained about it.

Second one is a LG OLED65CXPUA. Slightly outside my price range at $1996 from Amazon B&H also has it for the same price. It’s available locally at Best Buy.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-65-cla ... Id=6401850
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/cx-oled
Also has Dolby vision and hdr10+, hdmi 2.1 and wider viewing angles then the Visio.
The lg looks like a really nice tv and the reviews are good.

Third one is a Samsung QN65Q90TAFXZA
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-6 ... Id=6402412
$1999. Hdr10+ no Dolby vision wide viewing angles. A display model is available in La Jolla so I can go see it.
Frys is hopeless. They used to be my go to for a lot of electronics. All these tv’s are available locally, so I can look at them in person.

I’ll make my choice then budget for it. I’d prefer to pay in cash or at least charge it then pay off the balance before the end of the billing cycle. I don’t mind spending this much money as I’ll have it for many many years. Before I get the tv I need to upgrade my htpc. It’s a old itx Clarkdale motherboard with a i3 cpu with integrated graphics. Works fine for 1080p blu rays and DVDs.

What are your thoughts? Thanks for your help Paul.
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Pauven
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Pauven » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:10 pm

Wow, talk about tough choices.

First, thank you so much for linking to RTINGS.com - I'm in nerd heaven!!! All the specs I care about, analyzed in detail for every reviewed TV, freely accessible on the internet! How have I never found this site before?!?!

To be honest, I fear mating an OLED with a PC, due to the risk of burn-in, heck even without the PC. We watch a lot of streaming services on our Roku, and while most of them will display a screensaver of some sort after a minute or two of pausing a show, I noticed the other day that HBO Max didn't do a screensaver. I had to pause to take a phone call, which went long, and came back 45-60 minutes later and the screen image hadn't changed. Even worse, it wasn't showing a frame from the movie, but rather a big bright HBO Max logo in the middle of a black screen! Thankfully it caused no damage on our LCD TV. I had become too trusting in my Roku as every other streaming service on there always had a screensaver, so I let my guard down. And while TV manufacturers have come a long way in adding protection mechanisms to minimize burn in, it's still a problem, and I think the entry-level OLED's (like this one) have less effective solutions than top-of-the-line OLEDs.

But on the other hand, that LG's contrast ratio of ∞:1, WOWOWOW! And 98% DCI P3, yes! I'm also surprised that the HDR Peak Brightness was 685 cd/m², good enough for entry-level HDR. Reflections might be a real problem depending upon your room lighting. We have a Samsung with a glossy surface located in our light-toned living room, and in the morning hours the sunlight fully illuminates our living room, making watching any content with dark scenes impossible. Obviously your mileage may vary, but I personally hate glossy screens.

Ultimately, with it being $200 over budget, it's marginal HDR performance, and the serious risk of burn-in, I couldn't in good conscience recommend the LG OLED, unless you had money to burn.

The Samsung and Vizio look fairly evenly matched. The Vizio appears to have measurably better contrast, and a semi-gloss screen, both things I really like. I don't understand why RTINGS gives a better Reflections score to the Samsung's glossy panel, as comparing the pictures side by side I prefer the Vizio's reflections, and the Samsung's reminds me of what I deal with now.

The Samsung has a very slight edge to HDR brightness, possibly too small to notice, yet it lacks Dolby Vision - that Vizio seems like a very special find to have both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision. Even better, they both have HDR Peak Brightness well over 1000, so you are enjoying premium HDR (if not quite top-tier videophile grade).

The Vizio also seems to have superior color gamut, 94% of DCI P3, and over 80% of Rec 2020, better than even the OLED - I'm shocked! Plus the Vizio has 4 HDMI 2.1 ports. (Zorg says: "A TV with four 2.1 ports in it! Not one or two or three but four! Four ports!") Plus VRR and low-latency features for gaming (Samsung too, even slightly better).

If you can't tell, that Vizio almost seems like the mythical white whale, and for 25% less than the Samsung, amazing.

The two big issues seems to be the red tint and limited viewing angles. Both seem to be fundamental issues of the panel + backlight design, so I'm not hopeful that firmware updates can resolve this. I found the 4K @ 120 Hz complaints silly, as anyone with the PC hardware to do this isn't interested in a TV like this to display their gaming. Ditto with the complaints about flickering at 120 Hz - that mode should be banished especially for TV viewing.

If you haven't figured it out already - with the three options you've presented, my money's on the Vizio. But with one caveat - buy from a place that will let you return it if you are unsatisfied for any reason. The red tint and viewing angle may or may not be an issue for you and your setup, so protect yourself. Also, you should plan on calibrating the TV, a step that I always recommend but which seems especially important for this TV as out of the box the calibration is horrendous.

Okay, I've probably waxed on way too long...
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Teddyboy
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Teddyboy » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:59 pm

I’m glad you like the site I linked to. I stumbled on it when I was trying to look for reviews of 4k tv’s. I thought you’d like it since it has everything thing in it that we’ve discussed in this thread. It really helped me narrow down my choices, and there are many choices that it’s a little overwhelming. One stop review shopping.

It’s coming down to the Visio and Samsung. I thought it best to look for models that are available locally, so if I have a problem I can return it. I really do like the Visio and it’s within my budget, but the narrow viewing angles angles and red tint issue is a concern. The red tint issue might be a one off thing for that particular panel they bought. The fact that it has both HDR and Dolby Vision is a big plus.

Spec wise the Visio and the Samsung are close enough to each other to make them pretty similar in most performance aspects. I like that the Visio has four ports. Where I’m living at now is dimly lit. I live downstairs I my friends studio beneath his house. Next year I’ll be living somewhere different, so I need to pick a panel that is able to handle most living room environments.

Wide viewing angles are important to me, but I just won’t know until I take a look at the panels in person. The Visio might be good enough. It’s definitely a contender. If I see a red tint in it then it’s out and Samsung is in. I’m going to look at them this weekend.
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Pauven » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:39 am

Teddyboy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:15 pm
Frys is hopeless. They used to be my go to for a lot of electronics.

Fry’s Electronics going out of business, shutting down all stores

:(

By 2020, the chain had already established a transition to consignment-style selling, which meant not paying manufacturers up-front for merchandise before putting it on store shelves. That practice has worked for some chains with a decades-long head start on the practice, particularly Wal-Mart. But in the case of Fry's, this transition was met by electronics manufacturers who, in the Internet-rich era of 2019, had far less incentive to put their wares unpaid onto store shelves. (This will also reduce the defunct company's potential to liquidate, as the consignment-based merchandise must simply be returned to original manufacturers—which may have been the final duty for remaining employees this week.)

Hence, Fry's locations began earning a notorious reputation for barren store shelves.
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Pauven » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:52 pm

Almost 8 months later - did you get a TV?... :?:
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Re: 4k tv upgrade

Post by Teddyboy » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:49 pm

Ha! Not yet. I’ve been inundated with work, and I haven’t thought to much about it. I’ll let you know when I get one.
Mechanical Engineer, Solidworks junkie, Reef aquariums, sci-fi, weight training, orchids, Ferns, Kaiju, model kit building, balboa park, scripps aquarium

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